An Exclusive Interview with Romeo Castellucci: Redefining Theatre Through the Senses

Iran Saye Theatre Group is honored to present an exclusive interview with Romeo Castellucci, the visionary Italian theatre director whose works, such as Daphne and Gilgamesh, have redefined experimental theatre. This interview was conducted online on March 8, 2025, at the request of Mohsen Tamadon Nejad, editor-in-chief of Sahne Magazine, by Sara Rasouli Nejad and Mehdi Mashhour. In this conversation, Castellucci explores the intersections of mythology, sensory experience, and the active role of the spectator, while addressing the challenges of transforming traditional forms like Iran’s Ta’zieh into contemporary performances. He also shares his perspectives on universal tragedy, the role of new media, and the artist’s relationship with social movements, including Iran’s “Woman, Life, Freedom” protests.

Full Interview Transcript

Iran Saye Theatre: Good evening, Mr. Castellucci. Thank you so much for your generosity in accepting this interview. Your works, such as Daphne or Gilgamesh, have been a great source of inspiration for us because you look at cultural roots, myths, and legends with a new language. In Iran, we have Ta’zieh, a ritual performance form with prominent theatrical qualities. This religious performance reconstructs the martyrdom of Hussein, the grandson of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, through poetry, singing, drums, wind instruments, multifaceted symbolism in objects, colors, even animals, and emotional interaction with the audience. For many Iranian theatre artists, it is a major concern how these deeply rooted forms can be transformed into a living and contemporary experience without merely imitating the past. With a contemporary theatricality, what is your solution, idea, or thought?

Romeo Castellucci: I think that mythology is something that comes before the literal, so the roots of mythology are deeper than literal and are more universal because it is able to speak to everyone. The feeling of our life is enlightened by mythology and myth. Only with mythology can we explain some phenomena of life because, in this way, we speak about symbols, images that come before words. It has to do very much with the images. The images have no boundary. They belong to everyone, across boundaries, across countries.

Iran Saye Theatre: So, you are starting from images, transferring mythology to image?

Castellucci: Yes, images and sounds.

Iran Saye Theatre: Could you explain more about sounds in this regard?

Castellucci: The sounds and the images combined make a kind of dream for each spectator. It’s not my private vision, the vision of the artist, but I think that what we see on a stage belongs to every spectator in a different way. The sound is very powerful because the sound can enter into the intimacy without, let’s say, without any thought. It’s something that enters you, and you are connected, and you feel yourself in a very deep emotion without knowing why. So, it’s very powerful, and when you have a good sound, it means to touch directly an emotion.

Iran Saye Theatre: You mean this makes a powerful, dramatic, or impactful moment, sound and image?

Castellucci: Yeah, I mean a sound, the sound of music—not only the music, even the sounds—provokes in the spectator a state of wonder or fear or something very touching without knowing why. Then, the reason, the “why,” maybe you can combine a sound with an image, so you, the spectator, have to make it work. The spectator is not in a passive position anymore. The spectator has to work in order to build the image and the theatre. I believe very much in the active role of the spectator. It’s not like entertainment. It’s something bigger.

Iran Saye Theatre: Our next question is especially about audiences and their perception. Your thoughts about the audience are very important to us since your works have had a significant impact on many innovative directors in Iran, perhaps even more than directors like Wilson or Brook.

Castellucci: Oh, great! That’s too much!

Iran Saye Theatre: But it’s really true! You once said in an interview that the audience is a king to you, and you avoid imposing meaning on the audience and prefer they find it themselves. But some less experienced directors think this means their work should be vague and confusing to avoid imposing meaning. What’s your idea in this regard? How do you deal with this? Where do you think this misunderstanding comes from?

Castellucci: For me, it’s not a matter of imposing some meaning because it’s not interesting to give a lesson. In my vision, there is no pedagogy. I believe that each spectator is an adult, able to make choices, able to make their own reading. So, for me, the best news is the fact that the show, the theatrical production, is open to every reading, to every meaning. I think that the definitive stage is the soul, mind, and heart of each spectator. It doesn’t belong to me anymore. As soon as I open the curtain, it’s another object, and it’s an object in travel, traveling toward each spectator. For me, it’s good news if people have different ways to read the piece. The more meanings, the better for me.

Iran Saye Theatre: And what is the definition of an active spectator?

Castellucci: The experience of art, not only in theatre but in cinema, literature, painting, whatever—for me, the best is to, I speak as a spectator at this moment, not as an artist. As a spectator, I prefer to have work to do, homework. I want a problem, not a solution. To get a problem is good news, it’s a gift. Because it means that the spectator believes in me. And I have to complete, I have to achieve this problem with my vision. In that sense, the show, the book, the movie, the painting—it belongs to me. It’s part of my intimacy, my dreams, my desires, my fears. So, it’s an encounter. The experience of art is an encounter between me and the thing, in the middle. What happens is not on stage, not in the audience, but the experience is in between.

Iran Saye Theatre: In Gilgamesh, the death of Enkidu is a pivotal moment that causes an alteration in Gilgamesh. In Iranian Ta’zieh, the death of Hussein has the same impact on his believers. How can one move from such dramatic moments to a non-dramatic yet powerful and impactful quality? And generally, what do you replace text with to achieve such a visual and emotional quality in your works?

Castellucci: In my work, I try to transform words into something else. It’s not a matter of cutting out the words. It’s much more about absorbing the words in order to transform them into something else, something more open and universal. Because I think that the danger of the theatre, at least Western theatre, is to illustrate a text. And that is reductive. It’s not good. It’s just one-dimensional, it’s superficial. In order to be profound and deep, we have to transform literature and tradition into something more alive, urgent, newer. So it’s not a celebration of the tradition, no. It’s much more something urgent. And, yes, when you ask a work as a spectator, if there is not any transformation of the primal matter, I think it could be a problem. Because it’s something totally passive, totally a kind of celebration of the past—important, but it’s not enough. I think that the theatre, the experience of theatre, first of all, is an experience. So, it’s like a flame. It’s like a fire from the mind. So you can feel it with your body, not only with your brain. The theatre, in fact, could be considered as the art of contact between the body of the actors and the body of the spectator. It’s very free, it’s also not very physical, in a way. So the tradition, yes, is important, also for me, very important, but we have to work in order to transform the traditions. Otherwise, it’s just an illustration, and we are surrounded by illustrations all day.

Iran Saye Theatre: Could you kindly give a specific example, for instance, for Inferno or Gilgamesh, of that urgent, universal thing? Could you explain more with an example?

Castellucci: For example, in Inferno, which was related to the Inferno of Dante, our major poet, I remember that in Avignon, particularly, I worked in the space of the main palace of the festival, which is a medieval building, and I worked with that space like with a character. It was not just a scenography, not just a space, but it was a character. And then, to give you another example, I started the show with myself, which is very rare, and I was attacked by three dogs, in order to give an idea of the danger. Because the original journey of Dante, he put himself in the novel, and at the beginning of his journey, there was danger. His journey is dangerous, and in order to rebuild this kind of danger, I put myself in real danger. In a good way, the audience can experience danger because it’s real, it’s about flesh and bones. That is just an example. But we have to make a burning of the elements on the stage. Something has to happen, something has to shake you in order to wake up. Facing an image is every time a kind of wake-up. Look at that, what is it? It’s also a question, never an answer. That is the strength of the theatre.

Iran Saye Theatre: Another question in this regard is the necessity of removing holiness from things, the necessity of desecration. For example, in your show Go Down Moses, you remove everything that is holy in religious concepts. What’s the necessity of this?

Castellucci: For me, holiness is very important. Everything is holy in theatre, or at least there is a nostalgia for holiness. In our time, in Western culture, we have completely lost holiness. But in theatre—not in the church, which is bizarre—you can feel a sense of religion, a sense of holiness. Probably because theatre has to do very much with its history, with its roots, which is a ritual. It’s not a ritual anymore, but the memory of ritual is still alive in some way. I think it’s important.

Iran Saye Theatre: What’s your view about the relationship between theory and theatre-making? Do you use theory? For example, Agamben’s theories in Homo Sacer?

Castellucci: I think theory and philosophy are very important. I personally like to read books about philosophy, about theory, but not only. I also like to read narrative books and so on. But when you are working on stage, you have to forget everything. Philosophy is important, but then put it aside. Otherwise, it becomes an obstacle. When you are creating something, you have to be free. Not anymore theory. The theory is useful before or after, not during making it. Otherwise, your work will be something strange.

Iran Saye Theatre: So how much do you believe in deriving performance ideas from theoretical discussions? For example, the moral collapse we perceived in your staging of Don Giovanni—could we say that it has a theoretical or philosophical base, or not?

Castellucci: For me, theory in Don Giovanni or in other titles is important in order to go deep into the roots, into the philology. So, study the roots. Study what Mozart studied in himself. To go back to the source. Because if you go to the source, the source of the iconography, you can understand more deeply the characters. For example, Don Giovanni is very, very old. The origin of Don Giovanni is in mythology. You go back, back, back, and you find mythology. The mythology of Don Giovanni is the sátyros, a Greek figure of Greek mythology. So if you go back, for sure you will find the source. And if you find the source of a character, you have more tools to shape your Don Giovanni, your character. It’s important to study, but it’s never a demonstration, a theoretical demonstration.

Iran Saye Theatre: Is it true that we see a state of exception, as Agamben says, in Don Giovanni, where the law is suspended, and human life is replaced? Is it true that we see such a situation?

Castellucci: It’s so strange because Don Giovanni, particularly, is himself a state of exception. He is something like an anarchist, even more, an iconoclast. He loves because he has no other choice, no other possibility. He destroys everything. Don Giovanni is the one who is able to destroy social connections, he destroys the law, he destroys family, he destroys himself. So it’s like a tornado, a typhoon, a destructor. Don Giovanni is a point of contradiction to the state and even to the structure of the moral vision of the world. What he does is unacceptable. Even his end, his death, is a kind of suicide. Don Giovanni committed a kind of suicide because it was clear that it was his destiny, the death. It’s clear from the beginning. So at the end, it’s not so joyful as a play. It’s funny, full of life, full of smiling, but at the end, it’s a very dark drama.

Iran Saye Theatre: What is really incredible in your works are the images you create. Image is something that is really related to media. We want to ask about your vision of media, especially new media. What do you think about new media, such as video art, digital theatre, even cyborg art? Do you consider new media as an independent art form or a theatrical tradition? Do you see new media as a tool or something else?

Castellucci: It’s an interesting question. For me, everything could be a legitimate tool. The problem with new media, new technology, is that very often it becomes demonstrative, and it becomes a gadget. It becomes gadgetism, something useful, but very often it’s self-demonstrative, self-indulgent, without any deep reason or necessity. But sometimes, if you have a very strict, very straight project, you can use whatever you want. But for me, the most sophisticated piece of technology is the most dangerous because you can fall immediately into something decorative, something demonstrative, something gadget-like. In my opinion, the strength of theatre is primitive. We are surrounded in everyday life by technology, media. It’s not a discovery in theatre. It’s already old, old stuff, old school. There is no surprise at all about the technology.

Iran Saye Theatre: But how do you deal with technology or machinery in your works?

Castellucci: I work with machinery and technology only if the technology, the machine, is a ghost, a spirit. If there is not a spirit, I don’t use it. When I have a machine on stage, it’s like having another character.

Iran Saye Theatre: Is it true that the machinery in your works is a tool for impressing the audience? Your huge stages—is it true that the machinery replaces the text, to throw out the text and impress the audience on a huge stage?

Castellucci: Yeah, it’s true that a machine, or an animal even, or something foreign to a stage, could be much more productive, much more impressive. It’s true. But we have to deal with it in a drawing, not because I want to be provocative. That doesn’t work. I don’t like the word “provocation” at all. It is not for me.

Iran Saye Theatre: Our group, in one of its performances staged at the Edinburgh and Off Avignon festivals, tried to place a collective Middle Eastern trauma within a metaphorical and symbolic system. After that performance and the experience of audiences from different languages and cultures, some questions arose for us, including: Where does the understanding of tragedy today come from, and how capable is theatre of bringing it to the stage? Is what we in the Middle East experience as tragedy different from what a European person experiences and understands as tragedy? Your perspective is interesting to us. For example, in Tragedia Endogonidia, how do you use symbols and metaphors on the level of a universal experience, beyond a specific culture?

Castellucci: It’s true that there are differences between the Western and the Middle Eastern, despite the fact that the Middle Eastern, in particular Persian, tradition is huge and very, very ancient and big. I have a lot of respect for your culture. So there are, of course, differences, but I think that the struggle of today all over the world is more or less the same. So we feel the same problems. We are more and more close now. We are more and more under the same fear, or even hope, but the boundaries are less and less strong than before, even because we are in a globalistic vision of the world. So we are one world. And for that reason, for me, it’s important to work behind the literature, behind the tradition, but in one moment also beyond the tradition. When we spoke about the roots, if you dig more and more, you find the source, and the source belongs to everyone, not only to Western people or Middle Eastern people. We have to find the universal.

Iran Saye Theatre: And what’s the universal tragedy of today’s people all over the world in your mind? What’s our tragedy today?

Castellucci: The tragedy is always something personal. The feeling is personal, intimate. It’s not by chance that tragedy in the past, for example, Greek tragedy, the hero was always alone. So first of all, loneliness. You can feel alone in our society. You can feel the same pressure. Today, it’s about communication. For example, information is a strength against you. We are bombed, at least in Western culture, every day with messages, with images that have nothing to do with us, but we are victims, in a way, of this pressure. So the communication tells you every day you have to desire this and that, you have to be fearful of that. We are manipulated by communication. And that, I think, is part of the Greek tragedy. It’s a strength against us, against the hero, against the people.

Iran Saye Theatre: Thank you for your time. We have just two more questions. The first one is more general. We would like to know how you train your actors, because your works are hard for actors. How do you deal with this issue?

Castellucci: It depends. Each production is different. I work with a lot of people. Sometimes they are professionals, sometimes they are not professionals. Sometimes they are singers, sometimes dancers, sometimes common people on the street. So I have no method. My method is to have no methods. I have to be very open and ready to accept different people on my stage, and I like to work with them, not on them. I believe very much in collaboration. So first of all, whatever they are, we speak a lot, because I would like to find, between me and the actors, a common place, in order to build an image. It’s a journey. But not only for me. I have to be involved with thoughts, words, and also motion. I have to work with them. I’m not someone who gives orders. It doesn’t work. I never give orders. Instead, I listen a lot.

Iran Saye Theatre: As the final question, regarding your presence in Iran. If you’re not willing, you can choose not to answer this question. How many times have you participated in an event in Iran, either in person or virtually? It’s interesting to us whether there’s anything in Iranian culture or theatre that you find noteworthy. Also, as you’re aware, in 2022, a protest movement called ‘Woman, Life, Freedom’ emerged in Iran, during which dozens of teenagers and young people were killed and arrested for protesting against mandatory hijab. Following that, many artists, especially theatre artists, refused to participate in government festivals, including the Fajr Theatre Festival, and many still refuse to collaborate with it. However, you participated online in Iran and that same festival after the 2022 protests. Were you aware of Iran’s social conditions? If so, what’s your opinion on the role of an artist in relation to social phenomena in countries, including people’s protests and their demands from governments?

Castellucci: It’s a very important question, particularly because it’s made by you. Because we are in a condition, particularly a condition, for creation. So I have a lot of respect for your position, which is not mine. So it’s difficult for us to say something about it. In Western culture, it’s also difficult to be free. But it’s completely different for you. I have a lot of respect for everyone who takes a risk. If I have to speak personally, in Western culture, in Western society, I don’t believe in activism on a stage. I believe in freedom on a stage, but not as a direct tool to make a change in society. I think it’s much more about the theatre and the artist before every political conscience. Maybe it’s very important, but I don’t know. I try to figure myself in another situation like yours. Maybe my point of view could be different. But it’s not an easy question. The problem is collaborating with this government—I agree with that, sure. Personally, I don’t believe in embargo. I don’t believe in cultural embargo. There are embargoes for industrial things, but also cultural embargoes. I think that art has to go very well, particularly when there are problems of democracy. It’s even more important, but for inhabitants of this country, maybe it’s different. For example, I always presented my work in problematic countries. In China, in Israel, in every place that you feel is not correct, I go. Even in the United States of America. For me, it’s a problematic country because it’s not so fair. So, for me, art and artists have to go everywhere, even in the middle of a war. That is my point of view. Then, of course, everyone can have their own opinion, but for me, it’s important to spread our art as much as possible.

Iran Saye Theatre: Thank you so much for your works, for your time, for your generosity. Looking forward to seeing you here.